I had the opportunity to chat with the "Greater Secrets" team, digging into its long road to publication, their collaborative process, and color as a means to communicate. Also Tess's killer billboards. Love a good sight gag.
The "Greater Secrets" team of Ananth Hirsh and Tess Stone have been doing comics for quite a while, separately and together. Both come from webcomics - Ananth co-creating "Johnny Wander" and "Barbarous" with Yuko Ota, and Tess creating "Not Drunk Enough" - but are certainly no strangers to the other corners of the comics world. Tess is the letterer on the "The Adventure Zone" graphic novel series while Ananth co-wrote "Pixels of You".
I had the opportunity to chat with these two about "Greater Secrets," digging into its long road to publication, their collaborative process, and color as a means to communicate. Also Tess's killer billboards. Love a good sight gag.
Thanks again to Random House Graphic for the opportunity! "Greater Secrets" is out now wherever you get books. And if you like what you read, consider subscribing, or sharing with a friend.
To get us started and situated, this isn't your first collaboration on a comic. Is it the second, or have there been more than “Buzz!”?
Ananth Hirsh: You wanna go first Tess?
Tess Stone: I feel like we’ve done a lot of small things together but the biggest two would be “Buzz!” and “Greater Secrets.”
AH: We started doing a mini-series, webcomic-thing called “Is This What You Wanted?” which we did for, like, thirty pages?
TS: Yeah.
AH: But the two complete projects are “Buzz!” and “Greater Secrets.”
What cause the webcomic to fizzle out?
AH: Honestly, I think it was just another project on top of all the other ones and I think we’re both doing a lot of stuff. For the two of us collaborating, it’s easier to do a book under contract than it is to build a webcomic up from scratch.
TS: Yeah, cause we’re always juggling quite a few jobs, each of us.
It’s helpful to have that kind of structure?
TS: Yeah, and a little bit of support as well.
AH: I think it’s also, we were both interested in working with an editor, which, obviously with a webcomic, if you want one, you have to go out, find one, hire one, but when you contract with a book, editors are part of the deal.
Kind of a luxury for webcomics?
AH: I think so. I do know of a couple webcomics that do use editors. I know Hiveworks will assign editors to comics under their umbrella, but by and large webcomics tend to go without an editor.
Was it Whitney who was your editor?
AH: Yeah!
TS: She was great.
Did she approach you with a project or did you approach Random House with a project and was then assigned Whitney?
AH: We approached them with a project and then we were assigned Whitney. As Random House Graphic was coming together and picking up their first titles that they were going to publish, we wanted to get in on the ground floor of that so we pitched “Greater Secrets” through our agent Barry. Once the pitch was approved, we got into talks more directly about the book itself. Whitney was the one giving us feedback about the book itself and she was awesome. Her notes were really, really good.
TS: Yeah, I really appreciate the way she does her edits.
Do you have any examples off the top of your head of the kinds of edits that helped shape the book?
AH: For sure. The edits that were the most helpful were the big picture edits. When I would first turn over an outline and then later a script, Whitney would go through and give high level notes and speak back to me the themes of the book that were coming through to her. I tend to be a person who, when I write, I don’t always go into it knowing the theme necessarily. I definitely feel things out a lot. I’ll know one or two big things but the thread of a character can have a theme I didn’t expect.
So then if it’s identified for me, I can go back and shore that up. Whitney was really helpful for identifying those themes, which allowed Tess and I to go back and say “Oh, okay. How can we push these things up?” I really, really liked working with her. The way that she gives notes is very helpful to the way that Tess and I tend to work.
TS: She asks a lot of the right questions, I think. She’s a really good helper. Like sometimes she won’t tell us what to do but she’ll ask something, if it’s what we meant or were thinking and then it can kind of get our gears turning. It makes you realize what readers would be asking themselves while taking a look through your book.
Were a lot of these edits coming through - you mentioned the outline and the script - was it also there when you were providing thumbs and pencils or were things tightening up at that point where it may not have been as flexible to add those edits?
TS: I definitely remember we were tightening up by the time we got to thumbs. I don’t think Whitney had asked for much once we got to thumbs. She was very conscious about trying to save me from reworking things too much, which I do very much appreciate. I remember Ananth and Whitney really working to make sure that by the time the script was passed to me for thumbing that I had everything I needed for working. If there was an edit for the thumbs, it was less about changing something and more about clarifying something.
AH: Ideally, the thumbnails is the last stage at which you should be getting big notes. Like, if we finally see visually that a scene is not working for whatever reason, we can go back and rework that. It’s work but it’s not a ton of work, relatively speaking, compared to when the pencils are done. Whitney was very conscious of that and as a byproduct, very respectful of Tess’ time, which is really valuable.
Sometimes when you work with an editor, especially when you sign up with a big book publisher, they’re not super familiar with comics, so they don’t necessarily understand the ways a big change can mean a lot of work for the artist. So for those changes to come in earlier is really important.
The pipeline was pretty smooth. There weren’t any big changes past the thumbnails, I feel like? Would you say that’s right, Tess.
TS: I think so, yeah. By the time we had gotten to pencils, I can’t recall redrawing anything too big.
AH: I’m flipping through the ARC [Advanced Reader’s Copy,] trying to remember. The biggest thing that changed is, I am a person who will do a lot of line edits, like dialog line edits, basically up until the finish line. The reason for that is something the drawing comes in and doesn't quite match the tone of the line so you want a line that fits the tone of the image. We were doing more stuff like that than changes of drawings.
TS: I think the biggest edit we had was the ending actually.
AH: OH. Yeah yeah yeah. You’re right.
That was actually one of the big things Whitney…her notes precipitated us to do the cliffhanger ending. She was really supportive of our choice to end it that way.
I was going to say. It’s a bold ending, which feels like it’s diminishing it somehow. I really appreciated the way Greater Secrets ends. The ambiguity is wonderful, even if it made me mad.
AH & TS: [Laughs]
TS: We were hoping that would happen! We were wondering, “Is it going to make people mad?” And then we were like, “I hope it makes them happier after they walk away from it.” That it’s still impactful after they walked away from it.
AH: Hearing you talk about the ambiguity specifically is really nice to hear. Ambiguity is something I tend to enjoy and gravitate towards when I’m writing something but I’ve gotta say, as far as ambiguity goes, this is probably the most ambiguous ending I’ve written and it’s definitely the most ambiguous Tess & I have done together. By comparison, “Buzz!” ties everything off with a bow.
And I’m happy to hear I got a big reaction out of you! Even if it sounds like I made you mad. It’s cool you felt strongly enough to have that reaction.
I wanted to delve into the color a little and how you approached color, Tess. Both the colors that appear on the title page, which are more watercolor-esque, and then the more saturated and single-toned colors of the rest.
TS: My thought process was: I wanted it to be kind of saturated and single-toned and kind of stark and graphic at the beginning and the further they get away from what we’re used to, as they got on the drive and get further and further towards the pillar, I wanted to soften-up the colors a little bit, especially at the end where they’re very vibrant but it’s more painterly, I guess. I wanted to add an ethereal quality to it.
I also have color stories for each of the characters that helped me out. For example, Amara is a lot of that hot pink, so whenever I tried to incorporate her theme in things, I’d sneak in the hot pink. Maya is more of that teal. I enjoy color. Sometimes I know what I’m doing. Something I don’t and pray people enjoy it!
I love that pink. I’m a huge fan of pink.
TS: Oh, thank you. I love a good pink.
AH: Me too. I’m a big fan.
Every time I see what I call Vertigo Pink, that 80s Vertigo Pink, I love seeing that. And with that, it’s interesting how the color also plays into the rock aspects. There’s a lot of fuzz breaking through whenever Maya’s sister, Amara, is on the page.
TS: I’m glad people like the colors. I feel like I can go wild with them and hopefully make them feel cohesive.
AH: I really liked the choices you made. The fuzz in particular was cool because it makes me think of that jittery, static-y rock-and-roll sound when the amp is doing a little bit of feedback. It feels like the music comes through.
TS: I’m so glad. It was really fun and a great script to work off of. I really enjoy working with Ananth. I think we’re a pretty good team.
AH: It’s fun working with you too!
Early on, I gave a bunch of reference images to Tess from a particular South African photographer, Elsa Bleda, whose work I was really into at the time we were developing this. Particularly for the road trip part of the story, these were in the reference folder. Maybe you didn’t use these but I remember putting some of these photos in the script as a reference point.
TS: Oh yes. You definitely showed me. The atmosphere is really good. You did insert them into the script, which was very helpful because it lets me know vaguely what you’re thinking. It spurs ideas for me. I actually really like it when people put cues in their scripts.
I think people worry that it’s telling or dictating too much, but I think it helps make the artist feel like they don’t have to be psychic all the time.
AH: For sure.
How much reference did you have to do outside of this one artist for the various settings? Both while writing and while drawing.
TS: For me, I did a really long road trip when I moved from California to Texas, so I drew a lot of my inspiration from that road trip.
AH: Oh wow. That’s cool. I remember that road trip, as a matter of fact.
TS: It was such a long time ago.
AH: There are just some things that are mainstays of road trips, like the roadside diner or the gas station. I don’t know that I included specific references for that stuff. I don’t feel like I did.
TS: You did a little bit. Not so much the diner and the gas station. But I remember specifically, there’s a scene, and it’s pretty subtle, where they’re driving and there’s a sunken skeleton of a freighter that you specifically asked for. I remember thinking that was cool. You wanted the scenery to be subtly kinda strange the closer and closer they get to the pillar.
There was that and then there’s the rock formation that looks a little bit like a statue.
I really appreciated the Huckie’s Beaver Time ad.
TS: OH! I’m so glad someone noticed the Huckie’s Beaver!! Did you know I’m Texan and I’ve never been? My Texas card is being revoked right now.
AH: This is actually a reference that I don’t know. You said “Huckie’s Beaver Time?”
TS: Yeah, so there’s a really big Texas road stop place called Buc-ee’s and it’s mascot is a beaver. I drew a similar looking but not quite the same beaver.
Legally distinct.
TS: Exactly. Legally distinct.
AH: Oh, I do know Buc-ee’s.
When you were fleshing out the cast for this, how did it coalesce around this trio?
AH: The two who came first were Maya and Dyno.
TS: Wasn’t it Maya and Cardea? And Dyno came last?
AH: Did he?
TS: Yeah, cause he replaced Talus from a long time ago.
AH: Ohhhh my god. You’re right. So were those three the original three and Talus was replaced by Dyno?
TS: Got it. Wow. Sorry. This was such a long time ago.
How long has this been in the works?
TS: Quite a long time. It started before Covid - I want to say a couple years before. 2017?
AH: Yup. 2017. That is the time on some of these files, now that I’m looking.
TS: We really appreciated Random House’s patience because I had a lot of work piled up. It was a little bit in the oven longer than normal. I appreciated the time they gave me and the flexibility.
AH: I think for myself, the script and everything came first, so I was a little further away from it. To answer your question, it sounds like Maya and Cardea came first and then Dyno entered the trio. We always had a trio but we switched one of the characters.
The main trio were going to be a little bit older, actually. When we aged them down, largely to meet that YA need for a protagonist to be a certain age, two of the characters aged down fine but one of them didn’t. So, we kind of re-conceived this other character, Dyno.
TS: Who is great. I love Dyno. A total dweeb.
AH: [Laughs.] I would say: once we had the three of them, they kind of developed together as the story was written. The beginning part of the story is mostly about Maya and Cardea, and Dyno comes in just a little bit after. That kind of makes sense to me, now that I’m thinking back. Does that line up for you Tess?
TS: Yeah, no, that sounds right. It was always meant to be about three people bonding that didn't really quite know each other as well at the beginning as they did at the end. It was about that journey cause we’re pretty big saps and we love friendship.
AH: Yeah, we definitely wanted to do a fun friendship story. The friend road trip is a…I shouldn’t call it this, but it’s a universal experience. Like, you go on a long trip with your friends. There’s a couple of you. It’s the first time that you’ve gone on a trip without your parents. And it doesn’t even have to be across the country like they do, it could just be two hours away to a concert or whatever. That felt like a special thing and, when we originally pitched it, it was basically “surreal road trip,” that was the concept that we had.
Instead it became a little more convention in terms of the road trip aspect but that allowed the characters to shine through.
AH: I think so. Tess and I really like to put character first before anything else. Other aspects of the story will be built around the way we imagine the characters. It can happen both ways but in this one in particular, the world is almost a character itself behind the other three characters. Because you start, in what I would call Act 1, in what we would call “normal suburban town,” or maybe even a little bit suburban/urban, I guess, with the density that we show.
But then you take the journey out into the unknown and that’s the drive through the desert. That kind of continues to descend into this more and more subtly surreal environment - the freighter that’s upturned on its side; the stone monolith that looks like a person but may actually be naturally formed that Tess was talking about. There’s various happenings as the story progresses as they go deeper and deeper into the unknown.
To me, the setting also ended up being a character in that it develops around the main three and underscores their journey towards what they don’t know.
The road trip is a vulnerable time for a character.
TS: It sure is. Everything’s on blast.
AH: And it’s a road trip where you have three people stuck in a car together and these emotions, especially these higher emotions when you’re a teenager and stuff, can set up for some pretty dramatic fights. It felt fun to put characters into a small space and have them be combustible.
TS: It worked out cause it’s really interesting how the whole road trip and them going to the desert and finding this sunken city is a nice symbol for going out on your own after high school cause it’s just a bunch of unknowns and it gets weirder and weirder and you start realizing that life is really strange, actually. That familiarity completely goes away and I think that happens when you go on road trips for the first time, the world grows bigger.
AH: And Maya herself, she starts off just having graduated, if I remember correctly?
TS: It’s suggested that she graduated and it’s been a few months and her mom’s getting irritated at the lack of movement.
AH: Yeah. Yeah. She’s further along in this step into a strange new world. I think they all have, in their own way, a strange journey on their own and then they have one together.
We’ve got time for one more question. If you had to sell the book with one scene, which do you think it would be?
AH: Oh man. Oooh…
TS: I guess I can’t say the end, right? Cause…
I mean, we’ve already kind of talked about it.
TS: Let’s see…
I think for me, there’re two scenes that really stick out in my head. One is when Maya has the daydream of her sister while they’re on the drive plucking the pillar in the sky. Then also the one with Maya’s father and going back and talking about where the pillars originated from.
AH: Unfortunately, it feels like cheating to say the end but I do feel like the end is what the whole thing works towards and I think Tess does such a spectacular job bringing it all together. I really love that.
I would also say, there’s a scene, it’s after the snake in the sky when they’re camping out at night. IT transitions to a shot of Amara and she’s in a dark place - this would be page 154, 155 - we see her surrounded by all these snakes and Maya comes in, does “she makes you feel big” and then she asks “does she make you feel small?” Then it cuts to them talking in the car. I just thought you did such a great job drawing this scene. It is so crazy and menacing and rock & roll.
154 may be my favorite page in the book, unless I’m allowed to pick from then end, they I’d pick 193 where [spoilers…kinda] they finally see Amara and she’s standing out on this water and there’s a big pillar of light and you see the scales in the pillar of light and you realize that it’s actually the body of the snake and Maya is narrating over it about Amara’s voice. I thought that was very cool.
And then there’s all these two-page spreads.
It’s cheating to pick the end but Tess, you did such a good job.
TS: Well you do great writing.
AH: Aw, thank you but you made it look so crazy. I love it.
TS: It was what I put a lot of my energy into. I felt like if it had to be this way, it needed to pack a punch. I did my best.
You can hear the ending riff play over it and then it cuts to black.
TS: I love all the hard blacks you [Ananth] do. It’s very cinematic because you actually punch them into the script.
AH: I love that kind of thing. I love when it feels a little cinematic, though it should feel like comics, you know? I don’t like thinking of comics as a vehicle for making a movie. That’s the job of adaptation. But there’s those big cinematic moments and I do love that. I feel like heavy blacks sometimes do that.
I’m so glad to hear you say that you can hear the riff at the end.
TS: Me too.
AH: Because that’s exactly the feeling I was hoping would come across and when I saw this final splash where it says “Greater Secrets,” but it’s slightly offset pink, white, black, imagery and text, it felt so much like the feedback we talked about earlier from the amp, as the riff pushes through the speaker.
It was cool, Tess, how you were able to visually convey a feeling of music. I love that. It’s so cool.
TS: Aw, thank you. Music is a huge inspiration to when I work. I can’t really work without listening to something.
Going back to what you were saying, that scene where she says “she makes you feel so big,” I do really like that scene because I feel like music can make you feel those things.
Comments ()